Islam is

[systemtree]

I agree, Jerry, and obviously so do others here. All religions have had their ups and downs, and as the Spiritual Humanist Manifesto says their "time has passed."

It's abundantly clear that someone here has been listening to WAY too much Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, etc. etc., and has become brainwashed by the "Muslims are evil, Muslims are evil" type stupidity. It's just hard for me to stand by and watch this particular troll try to paint really nice, urbane people i have known personally - and more than A BILLION other people - with his brush of bigotry and ignorance. (And i have to admit it's kind of fun to watch him instead paint himself into one intellectually dishonest corner after another.)

Sure would be nice if he would just admit defeat - doesn't have to do it publicly - and move on to better and brighter vistas. Or he could keep up his bigoted ranting foolishness without my interference, if only he would put it in the proper context that it's HIS OPINION AND NOT FACT that Muslims are "pretty much worse than anything" or "more violent" or whatever prejudiced diarrhea he wants to spray all over the board.

Anyway, here's to the hope that we can start spending more time in a positive direction of discussion, instead of languishing in a corrective one.

~cj

[EileenMRegan]

From a Spiritual Humanist viewpoint, regardless of their respective excesses and stupidities, why would we side either for or against any one religion based on a belief in supernatural powers or entities? To my thinking, the only good religion is a dead one. Hey, weren't those ancient Greek and Roman gods marvelously entertaining?

I think we can and should expose the damage religon has done and let it die a natural death. Being too polite to speak of child molesations, incest and close cousin marriage with damaged children as the result, wife and daughter abuse, honor killings, separatism, refusing to be part of the community, sunday school indoctrination etc. are all damaging to other citizens as well as the affected members of cult and mainstream religions. There is nothing entertaining about children (or our military) being told if you aren't part of gods plan you are going to burn....etc.

[jmuelver]

I think we have to be careful about demonizing the demons. Difficult, I know, but polarization does not lead to persuasion. Showing benefits is more persuasive than threats. For instance, getting 77 virgins in heaven for doing something is a better sell than threatening eternal damnation and hellfire for not doing it. Or, in a more modern context, pointing out that not smoking can make you smell better and be perceived as sexier is a better smoking deterrent than ranting on about lung cancer and heart disease, especially for an audience that is more concerned with smell better and being sexy than they are with the remote-distant-possibility of disease and destruction.

I like the atheist slogan, "Millions of people are being good without God" as a starter. Perhaps we can find other little tweaks that mean a lot to people, like the awkward embarrassment one feels in the midst of ostentatious religious ceremony, or the feeling that one is being a little bit silly about performing a particular ritual, or questioning that an omnipotent, omniscient entity would actually give a shit about the self-serving prayerful utterance of one out of 6 billion beings on a planet circling one of 300 billion stars in a minor galaxy. "You believe WHAT? Does that really make sense to you?"

[systemtree]

I think we have to be careful about demonizing the demons.

Good point, Jerry. To paraphrase the Dalai Lama, it's easier to learn about yourself from your enemies than from your friends. Also, i think it was Nietzsche who said something to the effect of being careful when fighting monsters not to become one yourself. These are difficult lessons to get down pat - i have as hard a time as anyone with them - but they are obviously necessary in personal and societal evolution.

For instance, getting 77 virgins in heaven for doing something is a better sell than threatening eternal damnation and hellfire for not doing it.

LOL Did they raise the ante by 5 virgins? I thought it was 72. Maybe originally you got to 69 virgins in heaven. ;-p

Seriously, tho, i think far more motivation for suicide bombers comes from their hellish existence on earth, and their feeling of powerlessness to change it in the face of overwhelming force.

an omnipotent, omniscient entity would actually give a shit about the self-serving prayerful utterance of one out of 6 billion beings on a planet circling one of 300 billion stars in a minor galaxy.

That one always killed me. If your "God" is so awesome, why do you have to remind him that business is slow or that Carol Ann is having surgery or Billy Bob is going on a long trip. I can hear Desi's voice now, "But Fred, it's so ridiculous!"

~cj

P.S. We're supposed to be at 6.8 billion people on the planet now, with population growing about 77 million per year - could be at 7 billion before 2013.

[HairyBuddah]

Yep, that Hairy is sure crazy thinking Islam is a big problem. Wait. . . What's that? Who agreed with Hairy?

Clinton: Islamist terror is No. 1 threat
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/feb/08/clinton-sees-islamist-terror-as-no-1-threat/

Oh yeah, and there was that other thing.

Seriously, tho, i think far more motivation for suicide bombers comes from their hellish existence on earth, and their feeling of powerlessness to change it in the face of overwhelming force. ~cj

Ooops, wrong again.

http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=3&id=4708

Reality proves that this is not the case, as most young Palestinians who have executed suicide operations belonged to the upper middle class or even the bourgeoisie.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/world_news_america/8444780.stm

The Virginia Five, currently imprisoned in Pakistan, the Nigerian "underpants bomber" whose name everyone - including President Obama - is stumbling over; the Jordanian doctor who turned out to be a double agent with a suicide vest in a CIA compound in Afghanistan; what do they all have in common apart from a profound hatred of America and its allies?

They are all the products of relative prosperity and higher education. After all, Osama Bin Laden and his deputy also came from a privileged background.

Hairy

[greatspiritmonk]

Sorry systemtree, I didn't knew you were one of those ten people in the world who believe to what G.W. said. The history of the world is full of people using religion as an excuse to slaughter. Then it's a personal choice to believe them or not.
Anyhow in this thread I don't see much Reason around, well, also in my posts. I don't personally see Spiritual Humanism as a religion that goes against the others, but rather as a concept that can be added to other religions, even to the religion of not believing to other religions (atheism). If you really think that Islam is so good why don't you go to Saudi Arabia and ask to establish there a Spiritual Humanist Church? Ops, you can't.

[jmuelver]

P.S. We're supposed to be at 6.8 billion people on the planet now, with population growing about 77 million per year - could be at 7 billion before 2013.

I lose track, once in a while. Not within my pay scale. God's supposed to be in charge of those details, anyway. If you can't trust her, who CAN you trust?

[jmuelver]

Hairy, I think we can all stipulate that there are some bad actors in the Muslim camp. That lets us move on to the next step: What do you propose we do about that stipulated situation?

[systemtree]

Yep, that Hairy is sure crazy thinking Islam is a big problem.

No, you "is sure crazy" thinking Islam is a WORSE problem than Christianity (or Capitalism, Communism, etc. etc. if you want to go there). Looks like it's just never going to get through to you to stick to the facts instead of continually trying like a jackass to put words in other people's mouths. Not to mention there is a mountain of very specific data posted here against your argument that you have yet to address in any substantive manner (if at all) - how conveeeeeeenient of you to forget that.

Who agreed with Hairy?

Clinton

LMAO Clinton is your back up? Now that's desperation.

By the way, the Nazis would also approve of your selective prejudice and schismatic dogma.

Nazi officials dealing with propaganda aimed at Arabs and Muslims concluded that a selective reading of the Quran and the commentaries about it was their most effective means of reaching this audience. In so doing they drew out the already existing anti-Jewish themes. They presented Islam — not radical, fundamentalist, political or jihadist Islam, but Islam in general –as a religion infused with and inseparable from hatred for the Jews. In their view, from the time that the Jews rejected Prophet Mohammed’s demands that they convert to Islam, the Jews became an “enemy” of Islam. In so doing, Nazism’s Arabic-language propaganda placed the events of the mid-20th century into the far longer context of a supposed, but actually false, Jewish antagonism to Islam as a religion. They described Zionist aspirations as only the most recent chapter in a supposedly ancient Jewish effort to “destroy Islam.” In this effort they found quotations from the Quran and the commentaries on it that included pejorative and hateful comments about the Jews.

http://www.thejudeosphere.com/?p=863

Oh yeah, and there was that other thing.

Seriously, tho, i think far more motivation for suicide bombers comes from their hellish existence on earth, and their feeling of powerlessness to change it in the face of overwhelming force. ~cj

Ooops, wrong again.

LOL Wrong "again"? You haven't proven me wrong once, and that includes here.

Just because someone happens not to be from a lower economic sector doesn't mean that they won't be severely affected by the oppression of other people - and for that matter, where's the evidence these people from higher economic strata weren't directly affected by oppression themselves? (I know, i know - that's a question asking for specific, corroborative evidence that you haven't once been able to provide. Don't worry, i won't be holding my breath waiting.)

Also, "Osama bin Laden and his deputy" were not suicide bombers.

~cj

[systemtree]

Sorry systemtree, I didn't knew you were one of those ten people in the world who believe to what G.W. said.

I never said anything about believing "what G.W. said". That reading comprehension disability is a real bear for you, isn't it?

I do believe that the world leaders describing their bizarre conversations with Dubya are telling the truth.

The history of the world is full of people using religion as an excuse to slaughter.

Yup. Congratulations on figuring that out.

If you really think that Islam is so good

Show me one quote where i say or imply anything to the effect that "Islam is so good"? Oops, you can't. Why? Because you're a jackass.

~cj

[systemtree]

I think we can all stipulate that there are some bad actors in the Muslim camp.

I think any reasonable person would stipulate there are bad actors in EVERY camp.

That lets us move on to the next step: What do you propose we do about that stipulated situation?

What is there to do, Jerry? Just work on ourselves, that's it. Learn from each other, and from our mistakes. In so doing, we can then in turn lead by example. You provide an excellent example for me of maintaining your cool. It looks to me like i may provide an example for you of not being suckered in by one side of the (imaginary) political fence.

But for some people, i'm not so sure there's going to be a "move on to the next step", as they appear bound and determined to spew insanely ignorant bigoted rhetoric and false insinuations.

~cj

[greatspiritmonk]

"Because you're a jackass."

“Yeah, well, that’s just, like, you’re opinion, man”. Happy you, happy everyone.

[systemtree]

LOL Now you've hit a soft spot for me, as i'm a BIG Lebowski fan.

~cj

[greatspiritmonk]

So you won't be offended if I tell you to take it a little bit more easy, Dude, do you?
I don't think you like to throw marmots in bathtubs, nor do I, so maybe it's just a matter of wrong communications.
Better be calmer than we are now.

[admin]

Calm...